tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post1939018962547745772..comments2024-03-17T13:31:15.327+05:30Comments on TuLu Research & Studies: 355. Riddle of VyālaRavindra Mundkurhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-48177355097845659892016-09-21T13:52:37.068+05:302016-09-21T13:52:37.068+05:30Sorry for the broken sentences in my reply above:
...Sorry for the broken sentences in my reply above:<br />1...."Baris are definitely older than" castes.<br />2.Fish/es was one of the earliest "God" to have been worshiped in India. The ancient cult of "Matsya" was later adopted into one of the incarnations of Lord Vishnu by Vaishnavas.( This is how how they expanded their religious bases in the olden days). This explains why rulers like Alupa and Pandyas whose economy was largely based on sea trade adopted the fish God as their emblems.<br />3.The consolidated concept of Hinduism is a recent one, developed especially after 13th century CE of Vidyarana and the Vijayanagar kings.<br />4. Regarding outcastes I have some curious observation:<br />Every new tribal group which came and settled in his land (let us say Tulunadu)during the history looked down upon the older inhabitants. Probably in other words, every new entrant group felt that it is superior to the one that already had settled in the land.<br />Thus Koragas became down trodden when Mansa tribes came. Mansa became outcastes when Munda tribes came and settled. Mundas felt denigrated when Mugeras came and settled. Mugeras in turn felt inferior while Billavas came and so on the chain continued!.<br />Through out the history, if you study carefully, you realize that looking down upon others-ie older inhabitants- was one of the strategies adopted by all tribes (who came and settled late) to pose themselves as superiors in the race!<br />Ravindra Mundkurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-45131417098739122912016-09-21T13:11:18.938+05:302016-09-21T13:11:18.938+05:30Rather we should not look back into the history fr...Rather we should not look back into the history from the angle of castes we find now.The "castes" we find around us now have been fashioned in recent years, probably clearly after 15th century.In the early days, there were numerous tribes which were modified into "bari"s when they fused into communities. Baris are definitely older than Existence of more number of baris in any present caste/community suggests more wider fusion of multiple tribes.The word "Shetty" suggests merchant.<br />By this logic Alupa do not belong to any the forward caste groups we broadly recognise now. Alupa were originally from Alupe village in eastern part of Mangaluru, which was on coast up to ca.2nd century CE. The "kheda" in the term Aluva kheda means a deep valley or ditch. We can find the deep valley in Alupe- Maroli even now (That is located between Kulashekhar- Padil and Nanthur- Pumpwell). The rare Suryanaryana temple at Maroli suggests a historical fact. Munda tribes were/are originally sun worshippers. So Alupa kings originally could have been from Munda community. (The "Alupa" to "Alva" term modification is historically later one).<br />Again like Billa(wa), Mugera and Munda(la) were also warriors and soldiers. (There could have been more such warrior tribes/communities in the past).<br />For the Alupa fish emblem Matysendranath (ca.9-10 century CE)is not the only source.Fish emblems were there during Harappa Mohenjodaro too (goes back to ca. 1500 BC).<br />Alupa and Kadamba rulers were friends and relatives. The Kadamba was/is the holy tree for Munda tribes. Mayur (Maira original tribal name) had fascination for studying sanskrit. He went to Kanchi to learn sanskrit and become Mayura sharma. However, he was not allowed there and was rejected. He returned home and settled in Banavasi,designated himself as Mayur varma and fought against the Pallavas and built a new kingdom named after the "Kadamba" clan!<br />He had fascination for sanskrit studies so he brought scholars (Brahmins) from other regions to look after the temples built by him.<br /><br />These are my deductions as I understand from the available historical data.Ravindra Mundkurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-11389107445969197392016-09-20T18:48:49.663+05:302016-09-20T18:48:49.663+05:30It is cited in the article that one certain king f...It is cited in the article that one certain king from the northern region named Mayura Sharma who later came to be known as Mayura Varma wanted to spread Hinduism in Southern region, especially in Alva kheda as per the article. The kingdom at that time would have been ruled by a shetty king as bunts have retained this surname to this date. The Alva kheda region comprised of Uttara karnataka region along with kasargod region. Well let's deduce, Shetty's are a warrior class by caste,from what I have learnt,but then the same can't be said about Billavas. I propose two theories here:-<br /><br />1. The kingdom must have been ruled by multiple kings during the course of time. The initial ones patronized buddhism as evident from the coins from the dynasty. Two twin fishes, Matseyendranath has matsya in his initial name. <br /><br />2. The ones who refused to accept Hinduism as the supreme religion must have been pushed to an outcast role. Ritualistic hinduism took supremacy over the more dogmatic aspects of the belief system.<br /><br />The above mentioned story is just a speculation, as to what could have possibly transpired. Mundkur anna studying the coins from the region and more about Matseyendranath and natha cult might help.<br /><br />My apologies if there are major discrepancies in the theories mentioned.<br /> <br />Madhavi.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-13015078467583434402016-09-20T12:40:46.122+05:302016-09-20T12:40:46.122+05:30Evidently there was distinct influence of Buddhism...Evidently there was distinct influence of Buddhism in early Tulu nadu. I have touched upon some of these aspects (on Buddhism, Bhagavati,Mayikala and Kadri) in some of my earlier Posts. Thanks for the reference you cited. ( In that site the author has quoted posts from our blog.)<br />However some lose ends remain:like what happened to ancient Buddhists of Tulu-nadu? Were they converted to some other faiths with time?Ravindra Mundkurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-21036306548477433812016-09-19T19:49:24.827+05:302016-09-19T19:49:24.827+05:30Did the Billawas from Mangalore and Ezhavas/Thiyya...Did the Billawas from Mangalore and Ezhavas/Thiyyas from kerala have any connection with Boddhidharma. They were martial class and had buddhist afflictions. Vajrayana Buddhism a branch of Mahayana Buddhism, if I am not wrong was followed in Tulunadu, during alupa regin. Here's the link which confirms some of my doubts, www.harekrsna.com/sun/features/09-09/features1490.htm<br /><br />Madhavi Pujari.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-66778041794168129602016-03-14T12:09:25.344+05:302016-03-14T12:09:25.344+05:30The Jogis are followers of Naatha cult and traditi...The Jogis are followers of Naatha cult and tradition which had headquaters at Kadri Mangaluru starting from ca.8th Century CE.So the Jogi Purusha may be one of them (Naatha member) and may not be of Arab origin. The founder of Naatha cult Macchendranatha came to Kadri from Nepal/West Bengal according to legends.Ravindra Mundkurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-43156564055269910912016-03-12T13:40:15.254+05:302016-03-12T13:40:15.254+05:30There's this statute of Jogi Paurush,inside th...There's this statute of Jogi Paurush,inside the Garodi, he was thought to be a great warrior and of Arab origin, though I am not too sure about it. I have a fair bit of knowledge that Billavas who are same caste as Ezhavas from kerala were considered as untouchables due to their Buddhist afflictions. This you have cited in your blog as well.<br /><br />Madhvi Pujari.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-39247438600094339872016-03-12T12:55:33.018+05:302016-03-12T12:55:33.018+05:30Exact antiquity of the Garodi cult is difficult t...Exact antiquity of the Garodi cult is difficult to trace. However we understand the Garodi schools were the preparatory/training centers for recruiting and maintaining soldiers for battles and warfare. Apparently the Garodi system was in force much before the twin heroes Koti- Chennaya (who lived ca.16 Century CE).<br />Talim appears to be word of Arabic/Urdu origin, if I am not mistaken (I may verify later). Bermer is quite an ancient concept (read recent post)not less than about 3800 to 4000 years old as per presently available evidences.The worship of Bermer in the Garodis suggests the antiquity of the Garodi system which appear to have originated as early as 2000 to 3000 years ago, in my estimation.<br />It appears that the garodi schools once upon a time existed all over India and in Tulunadu especially we can witness the preservation of the vestiges of an antique system of Indian martial art.Ravindra Mundkurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-91384996307364134992016-03-11T19:36:31.212+05:302016-03-11T19:36:31.212+05:30Still a few questions regarding the one who introd...Still a few questions regarding the one who introduced the martial art form, "Thalim" is left unanswered. Is it Koti Chennaya our beloved heroic heroes or someone else like Bermer himself. If I am not wrong, Talim is not the same as Kalari. Does it have any similarities with other kind of Martial arts practiced anywhere else in our country or in any part of Asia specifically. <br /><br />Madhvi PujariAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-89669182921634580542016-03-10T12:04:19.518+05:302016-03-10T12:04:19.518+05:30Garodies were centres of martial art teaching upto...Garodies were centres of martial art teaching upto seventeenth Century or so. To crush the rebellion by native kings, the colonial regime of British banned all such centres along the length and breadth of India, especially centres thriving along western and eastern coasts. Mysore Sultans were also responsible for the decline of martial art teaching centres, as we understand from the story of 'Gurumatha Sthana Nanayara Garadi' at Pangal (article published in Mogaveera).<br />Godha, Talim or Gymnastium has been revived as teaching places for self-defence techniques and wrestling. Talim with shield and spear/lathis has remained as a ceremonial art during social and religious processions, as we explained in our Post-340 (27.06.2014): Puyinke, Paika or Payike - An Assay of a Class.<br />-Hosabettu VishwanathRavindra Mundkurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-75076851233134830992016-03-10T11:29:45.797+05:302016-03-10T11:29:45.797+05:30Thank You.Thank You.Ravindra Mundkurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-86480239761828064962016-03-09T22:26:03.953+05:302016-03-09T22:26:03.953+05:30The book goes by the name, "Tulunadu Garodiga...The book goes by the name, "Tulunadu Garodigala Sanskrutik Adhyayana", co-authored by Bannanje Babu Amin and Mohan Kotian.<br /><br />Madhavi Pujari.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-25475116322801461132016-03-09T13:11:22.973+05:302016-03-09T13:11:22.973+05:30Madhvi,If the book you mentioned in Kannada has be...Madhvi,If the book you mentioned in Kannada has been published please send the name and details of the book.Ravindra Mundkurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-55462293194220214002016-03-09T12:23:34.902+05:302016-03-09T12:23:34.902+05:30I suggest that you translate the book into English...I suggest that you translate the book into English, with your Dads help so that you can have a wider audience(I mean readers).Ravindra Mundkurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-36779982848734739252016-03-09T11:36:53.885+05:302016-03-09T11:36:53.885+05:30Sorry to say, Ravindra Anna, but my grandfather pa...Sorry to say, Ravindra Anna, but my grandfather passed away years ago. I have a book which is in Kannada, which documents the structure of the Garadi(Pictorial Descriptions) and has pictures of various idols inside the Garodi. Unfortunately I don't understand kannada, as I was born and brought up in Mumbai. Suriyah, a kind of sword is kept near the entrance to the sanctum. Some of the idols especially Bermer is depicted with a lance . Another interesting point is that, Thacoli Othenan a warrior from North Malabar, mastered some of the marma (application of techniques to vital spots) from tulunadu Garadis. This book that I spoke about has inputs from priests belonging to various Garadis. Someday I will ask my dad to translate it in Tulu. <br /><br />Madhvi Pujari.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-78378505054052128612016-03-08T12:46:16.430+05:302016-03-08T12:46:16.430+05:30Dear Madhvi
Thank you for the compliments and the ...Dear Madhvi<br />Thank you for the compliments and the specific suggestion on garodi tradition.<br />In fact we are also curious about the range of talents and the weaponry used in our Garodis and the martial techniques preached and practiced during the history.<br />Probably you can piece together such rare data systematically with the help of your grandfather and other elders who know the history and contribute an guest article/post (with pictures, if possible )in this blog. <br />Ravindra Mundkurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-35025074808215190462016-03-07T22:00:36.578+05:302016-03-07T22:00:36.578+05:30Thank you both of you. I appreciate your efforts w...Thank you both of you. I appreciate your efforts wholeheartedly to preserve our ancient traditions and customs, we need more people like you. However I have one request to make, I wish to know more about the martial art form Thalim practised in Garadis. Grandfather used to speak volumes about it, but I was too young to get it. You have cited in one of your posts, that it's a form of gymnastics, but it would be a pleasure to know more of what kind of weaponry was used, etc. <br /><br /><br />P.S : Grandfather was a priest at one such temple.<br /><br />Madhvi Pujari.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-29201555404759555372016-03-01T10:51:32.526+05:302016-03-01T10:51:32.526+05:30Hosabettu Vishwanath adds the following note on th...Hosabettu Vishwanath adds the following note on the comment of Madhvi Poojari.<br /><br />"This is regarding an irrelevant comment under 'Vyala' but relevant to Tulu language.<br /> <br />(1) The variations in spellings are common in languages. This is true in the case of Tulu also. A word undergoes changes from region to region. In regional variations, 'tha' (ತ) becomes 'Sa' (ಸ) (Eg. Thaute/Thavute) (ತೌತೆ/ತೌವುತೆ) to Savute or soute (ಸವುತೆ/ಸೌತೆ) and Thidde/Thidya (ತಿದ್ದೆ/ತಿದ್ದ್ಯ) to Sidde/Siddya (ಸಿದ್ದೆ /ಸಿದ್ದ್ಯ) (Father's younger brother) or thiddi to siddi (ಸಿದ್ದಿ) (mother's younger sister) and so on. The word is not borrowed from Kannada. Saute is a common word in both Tulu and Kannada. As we observe, 'Ta' is used in places near to coast and 'Sa', away from coast. This reflects the proximity aspect of languages.<br />(2) In languages of one family group, we cannot decide which word is coined first in a language and then it is borrowed by another language. There have been continuous loaning and borrowing of words in world languages. We have traced this truth in some of our Posts."Ravindra Mundkurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-73910942979376653912016-02-29T12:45:27.776+05:302016-02-29T12:45:27.776+05:30Apparently there is Kannada influence on the usage...Apparently there is Kannada influence on the usage. At this point it is difficult to decide instantly whether "Thouthe" was original Tulu word or the "Southe".<br />Ravindra Mundkurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09073231068374498281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842465514699048204.post-42565352209171041502016-02-28T19:23:41.569+05:302016-02-28T19:23:41.569+05:30I go by the name Madhvi Pujari. I just had a query...I go by the name Madhvi Pujari. I just had a query in mind, In tulu that I speak of sweet cucumber curry is called "Thouthe kodhel", but I heard the priests at Sringeri and Dharmasthala call it by a different name like Sothekai Kodialu. Is there a kannada influence to how it is prononced.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com